Thursday, March 6, 2008

Desperate Atheists?

You’ve heard of Desperate Housewives. I propose that the rash of books over the past couple years from atheist writers could be classified as “Desperate Atheists.” Historically, the greatest philosophical argument against belief in God, especially Christian belief, is the presence of evil in the world. (In fact, Boston College Professor of Philosophy Peter Kreeft says the problem of evil is truly the only “proof” against belief in God. There are arguments against belief, but no other “proofs” in the atheistic arsenal.) Yet, this proof has been thoroughly demolished by Christian philosophers with the argument of free will. “Man can only be a saint in a world where he can also be a devil.” If we are free, we must be free to do evil. The vast majority of suffering and evil in this world is carried out by people against other people. God gave us the gift of freedom and our misuse of that gift is the cause behind much of the world’s suffering. The argument of free will is so airtight that atheist writers don’t even take it on aggressively anymore. In my readings of Dawkins, Harris and Hitchens I found it interesting that they...

hardly mention it. No wonder they are desperate. Their only “proof” is dismantled. Couple that with the greatest philosophical problem for atheism (the existence of and continued growth of faith in God worldwide) and modern atheists find themselves in a philosophical dilemma.

Oxford professor Alister McGrath articulates this dilemma quite well in his brilliant response to Richard Dawkins’ best selling book, The God Delusion. What follows is an extensive quote from McGrath, using the conclusion from his book, The Dawkins Delusion. While the book focuses on Dawkins’ in particular, the points he makes are applicable to other current atheist writers as well.

“Every worldview, whether religious or not, has its point of vulnerability. There is a tension between theory and experience, raising questions over the coherence and trustworthiness of the worldview itself. In the case of Christianity, many locate that point of weakness in the existence of suffering within the world. In the case of atheism, it is the persistence of belief in God, when there is supposedly no God in which to believe.

Until recently Western atheism had waited patiently, believing that belief in God would simply die out. But now, a whiff of panic is evident. Far from dying out, belief in God has rebounded and seems set to exercise still greater influence in both the public and private spheres. The God Delusion expresses this deep anxiety, partly reflecting an intense distaste for religion. Yet there is something deeper here, often overlooked in the heat of debate. The anxiety is that the coherence of atheism itself is at stake. Might the unexpected resurgence of religion persuade many that atheism itself is fatally flawed as a worldview?

The God Delusion seems more designed to reassure atheists whose faith is faltering than to engage fairly or rigorously with religious believers and others seeking for truth. (One wonders if this is because the writer is himself an atheist whose faith is faltering.) Religious believers will be dismayed by its ritual stereotyping of religion and will find its manifest lack of fairness a significant disincentive to take its arguments and concerns seriously. Seekers after truth who would not consider themselves religious may also find themselves shocked by Dawkins’s aggressive rhetoric, his substitution of personal creedal statements for objective engagement with evidence, his hectoring and bullying tone toward “dyed-in-the-wool faith-heads” and his utter determination to find nothing but fault with religion of any kind.

It is this deep, unsettling anxiety about the future of atheism that explains the “high degree of dogmatism” and “aggressive rhetorical style” of this new secular fundamentalism. Fundamentalism arises when it fears its own future is threatened. The God Delusion is a work of theater rather than scholarship—a fierce, rhetorical assault on religion and passionate plea for it to be banished to the lunatic fringes of society, where it can do no harm. None can doubt the visceral appeal that this book will make to a secular audience that is alarmed at the new political importance attached to religion and its growing influence and presence in the public arena. Its dismissive attitude to religion will doubtless win plaudits from those who heartily dislike religion.

Yes others have been more cautious. Aware of the moral obligations of a critic of religion to deal with this phenomenon at its best and most persuasive, many have been disturbed by Dawkins’s crude stereotypes, vastly oversimplified binary oppositions (science is good; religion is bad), straw men and hostility toward religion. Might The God Delusion actually backfire and end up persuading people that atheism is just as intolerant, doctrinaire and disagreeable as the worst that religion can offer?

Dawkins seems to think that saying something more loudly and confidently, while ignoring or trivializing counterevidence, will persuade the open-minded that religious belief is a type of delusion. Sadly, sociological studies of charismatic leaders—religious and secular—indicate that Dawkins may be right to place some hope in this strategy. For the gullible and credulous, it is the confidence with which something is said that persuades rather than the evidence offered in its support. Yet the fact that Dawkins relies so excessively on rhetoric rather than the evidence that would otherwise be his natural stock in trade clearly indicates that something is wrong with his case. Ironically the ultimate achievement of The God Delusion for modern atheism may be to suggest that this emperor has no clothes to wear. Might atheism be a delusion about God?” – Alister McGrath, The Dawkins Delusion (InterVarsity Press, 2007), pp.95-97.

22 comments:

Terry said...

I’m an atheist and I have a small response.

Firstly, I think atheists are getting more vocal because they feel threatened not by religion itself but by religious people trying to force their values on a constitutionally secular society. Huckabee was trying to put the Christian God in the constitution! People are angry because the 10 commandments has been ordered out of federal buildings etc. etc. BTW the first 3 commandments are exclusively Judeo-Christian and therefore violate the establishment clause in the 1st Amendment.

Secondly, as an atheist I almost completely agree with every single faith’s view of other faiths. I would say that I agree with at least 99% of any reader’s opinion of truth of every faith that has ever existed. For example, I do not believe in Zeus, the flying spaghetti monster, Jesus, Brahman, John Frum, Thor, Laozi or the tooth fairy. I’m sure that if we made an exhaustive list, I could deny them all while you denied only 1.

Lastly, my only anger towards Christians has to do with how the famous ones are trying to oppress me. The laws of this land say I can not be made to think what someone else wants me to think. If all Christians stop trying to control the thought of everyone else, I think the venom will end. I’m not trying to say all Christians are trying to control other peoples thought but there are some out there like Pat Robertson who could care less about my Constitutional rights and I don’t appreciate that. I’ve heard people say that the “normal” Muslims should speak out against and reject the fundamentalists so the terrorism will stop. I say the “normal” Christians should do the same thing to the fundamentalists Christians so they will stop their terrorism. If you continue to turn a blind eye to these civil-liberty-stomping, vocal Christians then you are part of the problem and the battle of words will escalate.

P.S. I’ve read Dawkins book. I read it because I heard him speak and I was curious about it. I was an atheist long before I ever heard of him or any of the rest of the 4 Horsemen. I thought it was very interesting. My only critique was that he seemed to overuse natural selection as an explanation for things. The only reason that this bothered me is that Christians seem to have this need to assign religion to everyone. Therefore, atheism is seen as a religion even though it is lack of a belief. I’ve heard the argument that evolution was a religion which I think is bunk. I have already made that argument on the Intelligence and Faith blog so I won’t repeat it here. I also read Sam Harris’ Letter to a Christian Nation. I found it entertaining but don’t think Christians would. When I read books like this, I’m not searching for answers to the meaning of life and I’m not trying to resolve a morale dilemma. Therefore, it is my opinion that these books are designed to let the reader know that it’s okay to be and openly admit that he is an atheist. I admit that it is possible the writers are trying to convert the uncommitted but I doubt their target is the faithful. That would be pointless. My mother-in-law was offended that my copy of The God Delusion was in the open. She would never pick it up.

Anonymous said...

Ron, I will chime in on this one also.
Since there is seemingly endless list of Christian apologists making their rounds to Churches throughout America, can I assume the same thing that you and Mr. McGrath do about the atheist authors? That they are desperate? If these Atheist authors are just floundering and desperate, why are Christian apologists even necessary? I mean it's obvious to 90% of the world that there is a God right? Yet you can't seem to get these apologists to your church fast enough to shore up the damage that the Atheists are doing to the public confidence in your particular brand of Theism. I think it's very telling that you seem to me more interested in attacking the authors' motive versus the arguments that they make. I find this fact to be an indication of "desperation" on your part. I think it's hard for you to understand why these types of books are selling millions of copies for the first time in history and you try to write it off as some type of last ditch desperation? That doesn't really make any sense. The reason that the atheists can't write these books fast enough is because they are selling well, not because they are desperate.
Also, I'm trying to figure out why you think that Atheists need "proof" that a God doesn't exist. The burden of proof in squarely on you to prove that one does. If you had any substantial proof at all, this conversation would not even be happening because every one in the world would be right there with you in your belief system.

William C.

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."-Benjamin Franklin

"Religions are all alike-founded upon fables and mythologies."- Thomas Jefferson

Isaac Gouy said...

I propose that the rash of books over the past couple years from atheist writers ...
We could always listen to what those writers say about why they wrote their books, and why they were published when they were published.

Sam Harris has said he wrote "The End of Faith" in response to 9/11

Richard Dawkins has said he proposed a book on this topic to his agent years ago and was told there was no market.
After the success of "The End of Faith" Dawkins' agent changed his mind.


Couple that with the greatest philosophical problem for atheism (the existence of and continued growth of faith in God worldwide) and modern atheists find themselves in a philosophical dilemma.
Was there any doubt that we are credulous superstitious creatures, or that sometimes we believe things because we just don't know any better?

iirc a decade ago survey results in "The Lancet" recorded a small minority of the UK population who said they believed the Sun rotated around the Earth.

Opinion surveys record that substantial numbers of the USA population say they believe in visitors from other planets and witchcraft. Strange creatures that we are, we believe all manner of things on insufficient evidence.


And it's silly to talk about the growth of some worldwide population characteristic without considering the uneven growth of the worldwide population (demographics).

Anonymous said...

The "problem of evil" was never one of my favorite arguments. I would much rather discuss a problem with "God" that humans have no control over. One that can only be accounted for by the supposed "creator" of all things. That would be the never ending supply of horrible diseases that your God has "created" to plague the human race. Thousands of conditions, some of them causing more pain than any man with "free will" could ever imagine inflicting on another person, have tortured members of the human race throughout it's history. If you claim that your God created all that exists, you must also place the responsibility of these diseases on his list. Please don't use the "original sin" argument here. It's very tired, and not very convincing. Obviously, I don't believe that your God created anything or even exists, so I'm not going to let you off the hook with the "problem of evil" dismissal without bringing this up.

Thanks for your time.
Probst

PastorRon said...

I assumed this post would get responses... and boy, did it! Allow me to reply (succinctly) to you one-by-one.
Terry: Good to hear from you again... We've discussed the church/state issue before and I understand your concern and, quite frankly, am put off just like you are by comments from some in our fold.

Concerning other religions: C. S. Lewis makes the point that atheists have to disagree with all religions at their fundamental point: belief in God. As a Christian, I can have a more open minded view. I can find agreement on some points. An atheist says, in effect, over 90% of the world is wrong while a Christian can say over 90% are partially correct. That puts the atheist in a rather small, elitist corner.

PastorRon said...

William C. It is the tone of the "New Atheist" writers that is desperate. We are not desperate. The church is growing explosively across the world. On Easter alone just one of the largest megachurches in America will have more people in attendance than are members of the largest atheist organization. No one is pushing any panic buttons just yet.

Concerning evidence, there are a number of arguments for the existence of God. None of them are conclusive. Faith is necessary to bridge the final gap. God's existence can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt, not a shadow of a doubt.

Again, the atheists' dilemma is the worldwide predominance of faith - and this in the age of reason and technology.

PastorRon said...

isaac gouy: It is equally silly of you to assume that over 90% of the world's population fits into the UFO, sun-rotates-around-the-earth crowd. Belief in God is more than credible. Some, indeed, will fall for anything. But, over 90%? Sounds a bit elitist to me.

PastorRon said...

Probst: It is convenient to blame others for our own failures and mistakes. To blame God for the suffering in the world misses the target. "We have met the enemy and the enemy is us."

I can sense anger in your comments and deservedly so. Suffering and pain should cause us to be angry. As a Christian I can take that anger to God and, yes, even get mad at Him (as I've done a few times). But, where does the atheist go? Punch the wall? Alas, there is no wall to punch. Just "blind pitiless indifference" as Dawkins says.

Jesus Christ came to heal and alleviate suffering. No where in the Gospels do we see him distributing pain or disease. We Christians believe Christ will return and eventually everything will be put right. You say it cannot be put right and, in fact, that there is nothing wrong with it now; just natural selection doing its job.

All of us deal with the problem of pain. Christianity offers a solution. Atheism? Nothing.

Isaac Gouy said...

Please show me the courtesy of reading what I wrote carefully.

PastorRon wrote Some, indeed, will fall for anything. But, over 90%? Sounds a bit elitist to me.
Please notice that I consistently wrote first person plural. What I wrote characterized myself and all the rest of mankind - I don't see how you can sensibly describe that as even minutely elitist.


PastorRon wrote It is equally silly of you to assume that over 90% of the world's population fits into the UFO, sun-rotates-around-the-earth crowd.

"90% of the world" are William C's words - not mine.

I think after further consideration you may realize that you have simply assumed that I assumed ...

... you can fool all of the people some of the time ...

PastorRon said...

isaac: Fair enough about the first person plural reference; my elitist remark was unfair in that instance. Yet, the main point remains: associating belief in God (shared by all but 8 or 9% of the world's population) with other superstitious beliefs is a stretch. "You can fool all of the people some of the time," true. But, you can't fool all of the people all of the time. At some point, wise and reasonable people wise up. Are some of the 9/10 of the believers in God superstitious, unreasonable and gullible? Of course. But all of them? All the time? For their entire lives? I don't think so.

Rob Mehner said...

I hate the designing engineer of my car. You see, my car is acting up terribly! Sure, some of it is because of the way I drive, but there are these natural problems with it; pistons keep seizing, head and block are cracking, it's overheating...just things that no driver should have to put up with.

Oh, and don't give me that business about putting oil in it...that's tired and not very convincing.

"Don't eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge" is basically "don't decide you will be God instead of me." It is equivalent to "don't ever forget...cars need oil." I know I'll get shot at hard for using the Bible in a discussion like this, but it's to show internal consistency from the beginning.

We are told right at the beginning of the Bible that results of early sin included pain in child birth and the earth no longer responding as it did prior to sin. So at least the original sin argument is not one made up later in response to philisophical discussions...it was there from the get go.

Rob Mehner said...

but wait, rob, the very fact that your car has these problems is the very proof that there cannot possibly be a design engineer who wanted the car to operate well.

so what you are mad at is... hmmm...at...dumb luck. can a person be "angry" at dumb luck?

Terry said...

I can't resist this one: Rob Mehner said, “so what you are mad at is... hmmm...at...dumb luck. can a person be "angry" at dumb luck?” A person has the ability to be mad at anything including dumb luck. That doesn’t mean being mad at dumb luck or any other inanimate or unseen object is logical. People do crazy junk.

PasterRon said, “C. S. Lewis makes the point that atheists have to disagree with all religions at their fundamental point: belief in God. As a Christian, I can have a more open minded view. I can find agreement on some points. An atheist says, in effect, over 90% of the world is wrong while a Christian can say over 90% are partially correct. That puts the atheist in a rather small, elitist corner.”

I disagree with yours and C.S. Lewis’ point completely.
1. Although you agree with all religions on the point of belief in God, you only agree that they believe in a god and you believe in a god. Not nearly the same thing as agreement. To say their god is the wrong god seems a little more elitist than denying the existence of all gods based on the lack of evidence. You don’t have any more evidence for the existence of the Christian god than they have for their god or gods. All of the circumstantial evidence for the existence of any god is word of mouth which can be very unreliable; especially over thousands of years of retelling. I understand that Judaism is a religion of verbal tradition where students were required to memorize scripture and recite it until they got it right. That doesn’t make much difference over 2000 years. I was going to put examples here but then I decided the conversation would move on to a debate of the correct interpretation of the cited verses. So I will assume you know some “interpretive differences” which took place during all the retelling and then translations.
2. Many atheists find common ground on aspects of religion outside of the actual faith part. For example we think killing and lying are wrong. We see value in loving thy neighbor. As a matter of fact, I think the Christians and Buddhists have some fantastic philosophy and I even live by some of it. The only difference is that I do it exclusively because I see the benefit in it and many religious people do it because of, at least on some level, a fear of punishment for not doing it.
3. It’s unfortunate that we are in such a small corner. We wouldn’t be in Iraq or Afghanistan right now if the world were free from religion.

Anonymous said...

Probst says:
Pastor Ron, yes I am angry. But not at your God (like you sometimes are)-how ironic. I realize that the claims of the bible if looked at objectively, simply do not add up.
So, your version of God is moral, creator of all things and has instilled in us a "moral compass" that we should supposedly be able to use to judge "moral" and "Immoral" behaviour, acts etc..
So here I am, sitting here with my "moral compass" working so hard that its smoking, and I just can't reconcile the fact that your God-creator of all things, found it necessary to knowingly inflict his "loved, special" creation with horrible diseases. My moral compass tells me this is wrong. As would any sane person if cornered about the situation. The diseases were not "created" by humans. Your God, if he existed would have to be responsible for this atrocity. Say all you want about how "we have caused all that is wrong in the world" This one had to be helped by our "creator".
Back to what I'm angry about. I'm angry that we as human beings aren't spending the amount of energy we should- fighting things like diseases, pollution, waste, corruption. No, we'd rather drive our SUVs to church and hear our pastor tell us the things that make us comfortable. Things like-"you're special", "you'll live forever in heaven", "you are not just a naked ape", meanwhile cherry-picking the rest of the messages to suit our own particular personality/needs.

Ron, you and Rob both need to address the following issue. I've heard you both bring it up multiple times as if it is some kind of pseudo-evidence.
Exactly how does atheism not having "someone to blame" or offering only "blind pitiless indifference" any proof at all that it is not correct. By saying this, you only re-inforce that beliefs/theories of many atheists that the only reason religion is so popular is because it tells people what they want to hear. It says nothing of whether it really exists or not. Only that "It's a good thing to believe because it gives you hope." It only undermines the claim that "persistance of belief" is some sort of evidence that a God really exists (even though people are much more likely to believe the brand of religion they are brought up in)Do you see what I'm saying? Saying "It gives our lives meaning" says nothing other than-"Why not believe, we'll tell you what you want to hear". It offers no evidence that it is true, just that it's a pleasant thing to believe. Again, no wonder so many people believe. Of course they want to feel "special" and like they have a "purpose", but is this proof that it's true? No. Only that it is a very enticing thing to believe, hence the high belief rate.
Rob I'm going to have to dog you on that analagy. In order for it to fit my argument, the designer would have to place a gremlin in the car(remember that movie?)on purpose, knowing that it would cause you grief no matter how well you treated the car.

Also, what a coincidence. Human evolution offers a much more believable explanation of pain during birth. You see, as the human brain evolved (got larger), the birth canal had restrictions on how large it could get due to our need to walk upright. This is why human babies have such a long maturation process after exiting the womb. Baby brains have gotten as big as they can get and still allow the baby to get out of the canal. This is obviously a painful implication of evolution for anyone who accepts science in these matters. I guess you could believe "early sin" is responsible if you need a simpler explanation.

It doesn't surprise me that an "original sin" explanation of "evil/disease" was given right off the bat. What a convenient excuse to be used through the ages when God's morality is in question. I would have been easy to have the foresight to build that one into the belief system to be able to blow off any of these difficult questions- as you still attempt to do.
Thanks,
Probst

Rob Mehner said...

Terry, of course people CAN be mad at dumb luck, but that was kind of my point...it's kind of zany to do so.

Probst, the analogy works pretty well. Neither the design engineer nor God placed a gremlin in the system (and yes, I do remember that movie...actually I think they made multiple movies, though if I remember the first was the only one worth watching). There simply are consequences to the choices the steward of the creation makes. Sin - suffering and death. No oil - burn out and seize up.

One other comment. I can be just as angry at atheists for driving their SUV's to the coffee shop to read their paper and surf the net on Sunday morning instead of helping those who suffer. Take a guess at the number of Christian/Faith-based organizations helping the poor and suffering vs. atheist-based. I think that comment is a little unfair. Should more be done? Sure. You want to know some of the things our church is doing to help those in need? Let me know.

Finally, I just have to tell you that it sounds strange when you say, "God doesn't exist, so all this suffering isn't on God, but if he does, then it all is and I'm mad at him." Original Sin/Fallen World...I know you don't like it, but as the father of a teenage son, I can tell you it makes an awful lot of sense. He's one of the most precious things to me in the world, yet (as I said in another post) I don't sedate him, tape him inside a fire proof vault, and feed him through tubes so that I can keep him from harm or harming others or a tree limb falling on his head. I let him live with real choices and real consequences...and real exposure to a fallen world. Why...because I love and respect him.

PastorRon said...

Probst: You make a number of points; for time's sake I'll address one. The argument you are making is about wish fulfillment. It goes back to Freud; that religion is just designed to make us feel better, to fulfill our wishes. If that is so, I could think of a lot better, happier God to make up than the one the biblical writers came up. I would picture a genie in the bottle kind of god; one who poofed into my life at my beck and call, did what I wanted and then conveniently left me alone all other times. This isn't the God of the Bible. He is holy, he is awesome (in the old sense of the word). He is demanding. If it's just to make us feel better, why this moral component that is extraordinarily high in its expectations? Why this call to obedience to devotion and sacrifice? Jesus said, "If someone would be my disciple he must pick up his cross and follow me." People in his day knew what "picking up the cross" meant. It meant death by crucifixion. Is that telling people what they want to hear? Hundreds of thousands of Christians in the first 300 years of the church's existence went to their death because they honored Christ as God instead of Caesar. Is that "wish fulfillment?" Oh, many did go to death with songs on their lips - such is the hope Christianity offers.

This week in church I'm preaching on the story of Jesus' encounter with the rich young ruler. He told him to sell all he had, give it to the poor and follow him. He didn't like that advice - it wasn't what he wanted to hear. It says, "he went away sad because he had great wealth." I then went on to discuss materialism and giving. More than a few people were squirming in their seats last night. You incorrectly stereotype Christianity by saying it's all about happy, giddy and pleasant news. Make no mistake - it is GOOD NEWS! But, it is also tough, demanding and requires a lot from those who will truly walk its path. Just ask some of the millions of Chinese today who practice their faith in Christ at the risk of losing everything.

No, we follow Christ because he is true. And truth hurts sometimes. It also sets us free.

Terry said...

Ron said, "God doesn't exist, so all this suffering isn't on God, but if he does, then it all is and I'm mad at him."

That’s not an exact quote but I know what you meant. The reality is that if there is no god then disease sprung up through natural selection and is a consequence of that process. BTW the gene for sickle cell anemia creates a natural resistance to malaria. If there is a god who created everything then disease causing bacteria and viruses and genetic defects are subsets of everything and therefore he created them.

PastorRon said, “I could think of a lot better, happier God to make up than the one the biblical writers came up. I would picture a genie in the bottle kind of god; one who poofed into my life at my beck and call, did what I wanted and then conveniently left me alone all other times.”

Well, if Jehovah had been given those attributes he would not have any following. People would lose faith the minute he failed to poof to help the summoner. Of course, it’s possible that the followers would come up with some kind of rationalization where Jehovah only appeared if the summoner had sufficient faith. Therefore, the failure of Jehovah to materialize would be the fault of the believer and not the malevolent god.

As for guilt, it is my opinion that one of the most convincing aspects of your religion is the guilt people are made to feel. It creates a need to struggle for perfection and helps explain why life is not rosy all the time. You must admit it is possible that men created all of these rules (for both selfish and unselfish purposes) in order to control the behavior of their followers.

Anonymous said...

Yes, Ron.
Not all of the things the bible demands of people are pleasant. The point I am trying to make is that the majority of people who call themselves believers only want to hear the things that make them feel good about how they are living their lives. I'm just trying to explain why I think religion is so popular in the world. Not because there is any convincing evidence, but because it gives people something they want-a feeling of importance and the promise of eternal life.
The same people that were "squirming in their seats" (I do applaud pastors like yourself who remind Americans about their materialistic tendancies) will be going home and living their lives the same way they always did. They will have the same divorce rate as non-believers (as a recent statistic showed), they will populate the prisons at a higher rate than non-beleivers, and they will buy the biggest most comforable vehicle they can afford (or usually can't afford) vs. one that will be less damaging to the world's oil supply and the environment.
Ron, I would like you to answer a question as honestly as you can. I'm curious.
Do you think the world's belief rate would be the same without the promise of "eternal life"?

Ron-you continue to dance around my point with disease. There is no way man could have "created" diseases. According to your world view-only your God could have created them. He also would have known the havoc and suffering that they would produce throughout human history. This is clearly inconsistent with a "moral" God.

Probst

Rob Mehner said...

Probst,
I get what you're saying, but you are so predisposed to the answer, I think you're not hearing what I'm saying. If there is no God, then God did not create disease, it came about, right? What if there is a God and disease came about through variable after variable that comes from original sin. Like the car analogy, the design engineer did not create warped pistons, it is an outcome from decisions made by the user. The user didn't "create" warped pistons either, per se. But it is an outcome of decisions made by the user...to not put in oil. Why, if God set up the system to be "all good" under the conditions necessary to keep it all good, but would allow the natural thing to take over (that which would be natural if he weren't in existence).

I'm not implying he has evacuated, but that he allows REAL consequences to play out and pile up. How can disease only be created by God, though it exists and you believe there is no God. It seems your logic would force you to believe in an immoral God.

Anonymous said...

No Ron,
You are the one who believes that Disease can only be created by your God. Viral and bacterial diseases are life forms which you (I presume from your prior posts) believe did not evolve from other life forms, so they must have been created by your God.
I believe that all current life forms evolved from other life forms through natural selection, without any supernatural intervention.
I only make comments about your God "creating" diseases to make the point that your belief system is inconsistent (Moral God vs. a God that creates diseases).
Anyway, I think I've already made that point. I feel like I'm just repeating myself at this point.
Thanks,
Probst

PastorRon said...

probst: Let me answer your question first, then make an observation. "Do you think the world's belief rate would be the same without the promise of 'eternal life'?" The way to answer this question, apart from speculation, is to consider religion without promises of eternal life. Ancient Judaism had only a vague sense of the afterlife. "Sheol" was a shadowy place where the dead went and was not considered blissful. The Sadducees, a sect of Judaism prominent during Jesus' era, rejected belief in eternal life. That did not diminish their religious faith. So, that alone would weaken your hypothesis. Modern Judaism places very little emphasis on life after death. Hinduism with its views of karma and nirvana, doesn't exactly present a rosy afterlife scenario either. Most feel they will be reincarnated ... yet there are millions of Hindus. It should also be noted that your typical American Christian gives little thought to heaven just as your typical American in general gives little thought to death. Back in the day when death was a much more immanent threat for people of all ages, it was far more dominant in sermons and hymns. Many pastors and theologians have commented and lamented on the minor role heaven plays among typical believers today. As a pastor with 23 years experience in local churches, I can also say that Americans are far more motivated about their faith making a difference in their lives now than they are focused on the afterlife. It's not that they don't believe; it's just that death is far removed from their consciousness.

Why is religious faith flourishing the world over? The primary reason is that we are spiritual beings hungry to have the void filled in our lives. C. S. Lewis in his book "Mere Christianity" makes the case that there is a universal moral "oughtness" and a universal sense of failing to live up that standard, (i.e. the moral law). Religion - of all sorts - seeks to address the gap between the people we know we should be and the people we are.

The "argument from desire" states that if there is something we desire there must also exist that reality that meets that desire. We thirst for water - there is water. We hunger for food - there is food, etc. We hunger for God - there must be a God.

The universal appeal of religion is due more to this desire and the need to address the gap in our lives concerning the moral law than wish fulfillment.

Having said all that, is there a motivating factor for belief in heaven? Of course! Just like I'm motivated to go to opening day at the ballpark. It's festive, it's fun, it's a charged atmosphere. Something deep within me longs for joy. (I would invite you to read "Surprised by Joy" by C. S. Lewis for a deeper discussion of this.) Does this fact somehow diminish the truthfulness of Christianity? No more than it diminishes the reality of Busch Stadium!

Rob Mehner said...

I never said that diseases and viruses could not be mutations or the result of evolutionary forces. I've not argued that living forms haven't evolved. I'm not so sure about interspeciary evolution, but I'm quite sure that mutations and evolution have expanded variations. Also, who is to say how time after the fall has changed how our bodies resist such things, or the impact they have on us?