Q: What do you say when your children ask you, “How do you know that Christianity is real or right?”
A: There is only one way to know if anything is true or not. If it aligns with reality, it is true. If I say, “The Rams are playing the Patriots in the Super Bowl in a couple weeks,” I would not be right. I would be delusional! (Or perhaps prone to wishful thinking!) The statement, “The Giants are facing the Patriots in the Super Bowl” is right because it aligns with reality. My dislike of both teams matter little. It is what it is.
The Apostle Paul tells us Christianity rises or falls on the resurrection. If Christ is raised from the dead, Christianity is true. If not, then our faith is futile and in vain. There is no greater miracle and no greater proof. But, is our belief in the resurrection true? If it aligns with reality, then yes. How do we know if it does or not? After all, that was 2000 years ago. There is only one way to know if something happened in history and that is eyewitness testimony. We have many eyewitness accounts of Jesus’ resurrection. They believed it so strongly that when they were confronted with the option of Caesar and live or Christ and die, they chose Christ. Can we prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt? No, but the eyewitness accounts mean we can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. That is the standard for any event in human history. It is the standard for trials in court, too. On the basis of reliable eyewitness testimony, we can tell our kids, with confidence, that Christianity is true.
26 comments:
Just out of curiosity, do you know how many people have seen Elvis since 1977? It's quite a few. Does that make it true?
I think it's intellectually honest to tell children that historical accounts can be modified and that many times, people make honest mistakes about witnessing an "event."
Actually, no one has seen Elvis since 1977. Several have claimed to see Elvis and some believe the claims. I don't. None of these people, so far as I know, claim to have hung out with Elvis or had a meal with him since that time, as did the followers of Christ. Additionally, no one has been put in a position to renounce the claim of seeing him or die, as many of the disciples were and would not renounce the claims. I think this is definitely an apples and oranges comparison.
IB: Ditto Rob's comments and I'll throw in this ... your comment could be made of any event from history. Why believe one and disbelieve the other? And, yes, you can be mistaken about what you see. The Gospel accounts don't hide the fact that, at first, the disciples were confused and didn't believe what they were seeing. Thomas doubted, remember? Then he saw ... he touched ... he believed. It's either a hoax or it's real; they weren't mistaken. If it was a hoax the question still begs to be asked, "Why die for a lie?"
It is hard to understand how the disciples could have faced torture and death unless they truly believed in the resurection. Their belief is not the question in my mind.
The natural tendency is for us to recant or do whatever it takes to save ourselves from such misery. How they could have all "believed", yet none of them sold out is even more amazing to me.
And what if one of them had "sold out" their faith. Would that have made it not true? Not necessarily, but the fact they didn't, certainly supports the argument that their experience was true.
I am fairly certain I would have "sold out" if I thought I could save myself or the ones I love. Am I missing something?
I am not sure I know any "Christians" who I am certain would willingly die for the truth. Where is the power the bible speaks of? Why aren't today's "Christians" like those we read about in the New Testament. They really don't look much like anyone I know or see.
That's a troubling question; troubling because we who are followers of Christ in the West, and certainly in the US, don't closely resemble our brothers and sisters in Christ from the first century. I think a lot of that has to do with our affluence. We seek comfort, we worship at the feet of comfort. It diminishes our witness, no doubt. The early believers risked their lives to follow Jesus. We have no similar risks in America. But, there are plenty of modern day disciples who look like those you read about in Acts. Most of them are found in places like China and various Islamic countries where it is illegal to be a Christian. Various ministries, like Open Doors, tell the stories of the persecuted church. I find great inspiration there. I have also found it inspiring to be around first generation Christians from Russia and Africa. They make me want to live a more God honoring, radically devoted, Christ centered life.
Not sure this is a correct way to look at this, but one way I like to think of how this "disconnect" can exist between "first century christianity" and "my experience" is that perhaps God gives us the power we need depending on our circumstances and/or station in life? Don't know for sure if that is biblical?
That is a fair comment. God gives us grace for the place we find ourselves. In some ways, living in an affluent society with creature comforts never before known to humanity, is more difficult than living faithfully for God in an environment of hostility to the faith. But, people do which means we all can. The station of life comment is an excellent observation. Honoring God as a healthy 20 year old is going to look differently than living for God as a disabled 90 year old confined to bed in a nursing home. Both can honor God.
Hi guys,
The poster's argument is horrible; though, to be honest, i didn't expect a more persuasive one.
You're saying that eyewitness accounts mean we can prove it [Jesus' resurrection] beyond a reasonable doubt??
In that case, do you also believe all the people who claimed to have seen aliens flying around in our skies? For your information, there has been a lot more eyewitness testimony to support aliens than eyewitness testimony to support the resurrection of Jesus. And yes, Rob Mehner, some of these people have even claimed to have eaten, conversed with, and been probed by, aliens.
Perhaps you'll say, "Actually, no one has seen aliens. Several have claimed to see aliens and some believe the claims, I don't."
Well i agree. But by the same logic i can confidently say i don't believe the people who claimed to have seen Jesus after he died.
Oh, and one more thing. You're so right guys! How could this book be a work of fiction if all the heroes (followers of Christ) died at the end??? thats never happened in a book before!
Give me a break.
Yes, there are crackpots out there claiming outlandish things - like seeing UFOs and men from Mars. But, that is a stretch to compare it to the resurrection. Over 500 witnesses claimed to have seen Christ and these witnesses immediately began preaching the resurrection. The authorities had no sympathy for the Christian message as evidenced by their crucifixion of Jesus. If they wanted to stamp out these fledgling movement, all they had to do was produce a body. Yet, the disciples preached a stone's throw from the empty tomb. And, it wasn't just the original 12 disciples who laid it on the line. It was hundreds of thousands who died under Roman persecution for the first 300 years of the existence of Christianity. Show me a UFO movement of similar scope and sacrifice. You won't find one.
"Reasonable doubt" is the standard by which our criminal justice system convicts people of crime. It is not "beyond a shadow of a doubt." 500 eye witnesses would stand up in any court of law. I would invite you to read the classic book, "Who Moved the Stone," by Frank Morison. Mr. Morison was a skeptic attorney determined to disprove Christianity once and for all. He studied the evidence ... and became a Christian. I would invite you to do the same. Read his book or read more recent books by Lee Strobel (former atheist journalist with the Chicago Tribune) "The Case for Christ," "The Case for Faith." You will note the intellectual honesty, the journalistic determination to uncover the truth, and the scholarship. Not the stuff you'll find in the National Enquirer on UFOs!
Hi PastorRon,
First of all, I can't say i understand how comparing UFOs to the resurrection is a stretch, please elaborate on why you think it's a stretch.
Secondly, there are several reasons why there has never been a UFO movement with a death toll, and they include,
1. Believing in UFOs was never made illegal with the punishment being death
2. UFO believers have never tried to forcefully liberate themselves from the romans.
Skepticsurvivalschool...
Give me an example of, say, 500 people collaborating on a UFO sighting. To measure up to the accounts of the resurrection, there would have to be multiple sightings over 40 days by numerous eyewitnesses. They would have to be credible witnesses: people of integrity others would vouch for. They would not only have to claim to have seen something from far away (since most UFO sightings are nothing more than fleeting glances from a distance) they would have to claim "close encounters of the third kind" - physical touch with multiple witnesses looking on. They would have to have had conversations with these beings - again, in the presence of witnesses. And, there would have to be hard, physical evidence left behind (like the empty tomb is for the resurrection - which none of the detractors in Jerusalem disputed). Then, to make the comparison similar, they would have to be so effective in convincing others of their story that people sign on by the tens of thousands, risking reputation and ridicule from an unbelieving public. Ten days following Christ’s ascension, on the Day of Pentecost, his followers grew to over 3000 in Jerusalem, walking distance from the empty tomb. That exponential growth continued for the next 300 years. And, by the way, these followers can’t be just folks who say from a distance, “I think I believe them.” They would need to be card carrying, dues paying, committed followers of the UFO movement who meet weekly to discuss the movement, sing songs about it and invite others to their meetings. Now, that would be some powerful UFO story to meet those criteria! The examples are so far apart that, yes, it is a stretch to compare them.
Now, let me ask you a question: how do you know anything from history actually happened?
In response to the anonymous writer above; it never ceases to amaze me how angry and frustrated people get about others believing the eyewitness accounts of the resurrection in the Bible. I don't get angry at people who believe those who say they've seen UFO's. I don't believe the same thing, but it doesn't frustrate me that they do.
Let me say this, very honestly. I've read a couple of books and seen several shows about UFO sitings because I wanted to check it out for myself. I have a relative who reports seeing a UFO and I've had conversations with her to check it out for myself. I didn't dismiss them offhand. I do confess, I pretty much dismissed the Elvis crowd with no investigation.
I defer to Pastor Ron; individual sitings in different places at different times, almost always from a distance is different than consistent accounts among a growing but consistent community in the environment he describes.
I'm not really gonna comment on anything you've said because, in all reality, i can't make you realize that its all bullshit (excuse my choice of words) because your belief is rooted in faith. In retrospect, i never should have put my two cents in.
However, i will answer your question, PastorRon.
How do i know anything in history actually happened? Overwhelming archaeological evidence or records. No, i don't believe the gospels are historical records and thats just my opinion. If you really want me to explain why, tell me and i'll repost but i'm a lazy fuck and i feel i've already typed to much, lol.
(Why can't i indent?!?!? driving me nuts) A lot of people ask me, "since you need evidence to believe in God, how is it that you can believe in historical figures such as George Washington?" Well, first, you can visit his grave. Also, the papers of george washington have been digitized and put in the library of congress. As for Jesus, there is no archaeological evidence for his existence (except maybe for the tomb but i'm not sure if they've even found that) because, conveniently, he ascended into heaven and took his body after he died! Jesus! why couldn't he just have left that damn body in perfect condition with a sticker that said "Jesus" on it and save us the trouble of bickering about this.
Oh, and if you're gonna tell me, "the gospels are historical evidence," don't waste your time because i don't buy it. If George Washington was said to have been born by a virgin, killed, and ascended into heaven without ever leaving a trace of evidence i wouldn't believe in him either.
My faith is an informed faith that is rooted in historical events. There is more historical evidence for Jesus Christ than Julius Caesar. Archaeological evidence affirms the biblical record; it doesn’t undermine it. No reputable historian doubts the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth.
George Washington lived 200+ years ago; of course there is a house and written material. Go back 2000+ years and compare Christ to the figures of his era. If you use the same standards for Christ that are used for other significant figures of that time you will discover that there is as much or more evidence. Do you believe Plato and Aristotle actually lived? If so, why? If so, why the double standard (one for Jesus and one for others of his era)?
Can you find historians who doubt that Jesus really lived? Yes. You can also find historians who deny the holocaust ever happened. They are of the same ilk. Their conclusions are based on their agendas, their biases. You say I’m basing my conclusions on “faith.” It seems your conclusions are based on faith and personal opinions; just faith of a different kind. Set aside faith and opinions and look at it from a historical perspective and the Christian message holds its own quite nicely. That’s why some of the most respected and brilliant historians and archaeologists are also people of faith.
"Informed faith" is an oxymoron.
I'll have to do some research gathering for the archaeological evidence related to Jesus' existence (Not saying it doesn't exist, but right now I'm more preoccupied with school (unfortunately) and debating about politics so i haven't got a chance to do any research on the archaeological evidence despite the fact that i read your post last night.
If "informed faith" is an oxymoron, does that mean your faith is uninformed?
Your statement assumes that I have faith. In reality, I'm an agnostic; we all are. I love how christians try to destroy an argument by saying that someone who does not believe in God has to have faith not to believe in God. Wrong. I don't need faith to conclude, "Because I have never encountered God, and because I have never seen any evidence of a God, I can logically conclude that there is not one."
On a positive note, I did talk to a few professors and found out that there is documentation of an historical Jesus. That, however, does not suggest that there is historical evidence that Jesus came back from the dead, performed miracles, etc.
Yes, I assume you have faith. I assume you accept the Big Bang theory, correct? How do you explain where the singularity came from (the nickel sized material that suddenly expanded about 17 billion years ago to create the universe as we now know it)? In a material universe, without God, how do you explain the existence of the singularity? What caused the first cause?
Personally, i think that the universe has always been here (You've heard of this, the LAW that says matter cannot be created or destroyed. 2nd law of thermodynamics).
Following your logic, who created God?
If you believe the universe was always here you go against the entire field of science which accepts the notion that the universe had a beginning. Most believe the universe came into being about 17 billion years ago. Prior to the Big Bang Theory (developed in the 1920s) the common viewpoint was that the universe was eternal. In fact, some skeptics at the time feared the establishment of the Big Bang Theory would open the door for creationism. Before then Christians were ridiculed for believing the world had a beginning. While some scientists are atheistic in their views, nearly all reject the older notion that the universe is eternal.
Who created God? By definition an eternal being has no beginning and no end. God always has been. He is related to the universe like an author is related to his novel. You may reject that notion, but it is logical. Saying a material world came into being on its own without God, a world built on cause/effect is not logical. That is where faith comes in for the atheist.
The main difference between your view of how the universe started and the Big Bang Theory - while not proven and will probably never be proven - is the Big Bang Theory has been substantiated by facts. You, like your primitive contemporaries, are so scared of not knowing without a doubt how the universe started that you've created your imaginary friend.
I, like I imagine you do (but for different reasons, probably), see problems with the Big Bang Theory and that is why i am not 100% on whether or not to believe in the theory. Does that mean I should automatically believe in a made up God like you have? No, it would be ridiculous and frankly stupid for me to just believe in a made up God just because I couldn't explain how the universe came to be.
God is NOT like an author of a book. You can call an author up and talk to them if you wish. Can i call God on the phone? furthermore, I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of books have a definitive author that everyone recognizes. But I can think of one person God is like! Santa! Theres no evidence at all that Santa climbs down chimneys to bring presents to everyone on Christmas, yet the lie being perpetrated is still believed to be truth in the eyes of millions of 6 year olds.
In all reality, Christians are exactly like those 6 year olds. Not a spot of difference. You both believe because you want to believe, not because you have evidence but because you see your mythical friends as magical.
How many adults do you know convert to a belief in Santa? Yet, adults convert to faith in God all the time. In fact, quite a few adult atheists have converted to faith in God. Your argument doesn't hold water.
You still have the greater dilemma. Who caused the first cause in a materialistic universe? You say you're not 100% sure of the Big Bang. Fine. The vast majority of the scientific community does. You like evidence. Where is yours?
We Christians believe evidence for the existence of God is all around. See my previous replies to your comments about the resurrection. The resurrection would hold up in court.
When your superstitious, a lot of things could be interpreted as evidence. I.E. you get what you want after praying to a rabbit's foot, you get mugged after walking under a latter.
Furthermore, the resurrection would NOT hold up in court, buddy. My reason for saying that is because none of the people who wrote the gospels were actually eyewitnesses. If you put a jury full of agnostics up there, they wouldn't buy that nonesense.
Face the facts, my man. Your religion is not based on evidence it's based on geography. If you were born in asia, you would be a buddhist. If you were born in Africa, you'd be an animist or a muslim.
Just because no one can prove to you how the universe started doesn't mean that your right. How do you know the flying spaghetti monster didn't create the universe?
Oh yeah, The only reason you don't see adults converting to belief in Santa is because there is no gospel according to Rudolph.
There are over 2 billion Christians in the world. They are found on every continent and in nearly every country. And, Christianity is growing most rapidly in Asia and Africa, the two places you mention. In 20 years China will have the largest Christian population of any nation in the world. Christians make up 50% of South Korea's population, recently eclipsing Buddhism as the country's dominant faith. South Korea sends more missionaries than any other country except the USA. Today there are over 100 million Christians in Africa and the church's rate of growth there is exponential. Face the facts, my man: You need to do your homework.
I think you knew exactly what i meant. Christianity came to asia and africa because of European/American missionaries over the course of the past few centuries. Christianity never just popped up in any country (Other than where it started).
So let me put it to you in another way: If you had three groups of people (one group christian, one buddhist, and one who follows the one true flying spaghetti monster) on three different continents, totally isolated from one another, the non-christians would never - all of the sudden - turn christian.
Anyways, i really don't feel like coming back to the site to debate about a topic that neither of us can prove to one another (i'm running out of things to say). Been fun, and good luck.
Skepticsurvivalschool: It's been good talking to you.
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